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OP
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Hi folks, I have a question regarding key changes, or transpositions.
Here's what I'm doing in BIAB 9: I'm writing long songs with many sections (using the "one long song" technique, no auto repeats) they sound great but I need to experiment more with key changes to add variety.
1. Is it correct that I can only transpose the entire song? I can't select a portion of it and just transpose that?
2. What is a good way to try out different key changes to see how they sound?
3. Is it only possible to have one BIAB document open at a time?
Because here's what I've been doing--- I copy the chord progression (say 8 bars) I want to transpose into a new document, transpose it, copy it to the clipboard, and paste it back into the song I'm working on. Try it. Nope, close song, open transposing doc, try another... awkward method, but it works. Sometimes I simply write down the transposed chord symbols, then I can try a bunch of different ones without having to open and close the documents multiple times.
Forgive me if this seems outrageously Newbish. Is there a better way? How to other people do this?
Thanks for your help! Bandmoose.
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Quote:
1. Is it correct that I can only transpose the entire song? I can't select a portion of it and just transpose that?
I have forgotten which version of BB added the "Key change at Bar" feature, you can find out if you have that very easily by RightClicking on the bar and selecting "Bar Settings" -- peruse the window that opens and see if there is a keychange block in it. If there is, you should be able to invoke key changes at Bar. If there isn't, may be time to bite the bullet and upgrade.
Quote:
2. What is a good way to try out different key changes to see how they sound?
Noobs don't like to hear this, but there is really nothing new under the sun here. Study the works of JS Bach. No kidding, its all in there. Handel is another composer where you can peruse a score and learn a heckuva lot about the art and science of music transposition on the fly. That said, there are some tricks that will always work. For example, one can generally almost always get away with an "abrupt" transposition (a transpose in which no intermediate chording is needed in order to get there) if the transpose is simply up one half step or one whole step. You can go down also the same amount, but most feel that going downwards in key like that doesn't add any animation to the piece. An example would be the end of a song area, where the same verse or chorus just abruptly goes up one half step and repeats.
Transitions larger than a whole step usually require use of "Interim" chords in order to have the music line "get there" and still make sense to the ears of the listener. The easiest way to do that is to simply invoke the V chord (or better yet for harmony's sake, the V7 chord) of the target key and then go right into that key. An even smoother transition is the "two-five" change where you start on the 2 (uisually minor) of the target key for half a bar and then go to the V7 of the target key for the 2nd half of that bar, followed by a full bar of the new key's I chord. For great examples of this one, study songs like, "Cherokee" or "How High the Moon" (same changes) where the 2-5-1's are part and parcel of the Bridge. Note that in these situations, the key signature is not changed on paper, even though the songs go through several keychanges using those all-important 2-5-1s.
Quote:
3. Is it only possible to have one BIAB document open at a time?
That is correct. However, if you want to do that simply to hear your key transitions at work, you could open one song in RealBand and then Import the next song and tack it onto the first one, etc.
Quote:
Because here's what I've been doing--- I copy the chord progression (say 8 bars) I want to transpose into a new document, transpose it, copy it to the clipboard, and paste it back into the song I'm working on. Try it. Nope, close song, open transposing doc, try another... awkward method, but it works. Sometimes I simply write down the transposed chord symbols, then I can try a bunch of different ones without having to open and close the documents multiple times.
Forgive me if this seems outrageously Newbish. Is there a better way? How to other people do this?
I just manually type in the new chords into the first songfile after using the Edit -> Insert Bars command to yield the proper number of empty bars in there. Not a cut and paste speed operation, but it works, and along the way my weak brain has learned a heckuva lot about transposition from doing it that way.
**MANY transpositions are internal and there is no change of key signature involved. This is not just true of today's popular songs, either. Those aforementioned works of Bach and Handel do the same thing, they simply go to the new "inside" keysig, leaving the main keysig invoked and use accidentlas on the note until the thing goes back to the original key. The result sounds the same and is often simply and easier read for musicians.
HTH,
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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OP
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Quote:
Quote:
1. Is it correct that I can only transpose the entire song? I can't select a portion of it and just transpose that?
I have forgotten which version of BB added the "Key change at Bar" feature, you can find out if you have that very easily by RightClicking on the bar and selecting "Bar Settings" -- peruse the window that opens and see if there is a keychange block in it. If there is, you should be able to invoke key changes at Bar. If there isn't, may be time to bite the bullet and upgrade.
Quote:
Hey Mac, thanks so much for your detailed and superb response. I've tried to do what you mention above and I can't seem to get it to work, it doesn't do anything... (BIAB 9) I right click on bar 84, select "bar settings", as I've done to change tempo or volume at any bar, select "key change" and select a new key from the drop-down.... but it does nothing. Neither visually change the chord names, nor in playback does it sound transposed. I've tried selecting right through to the end of the song, still nothing...?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I'm going to presume that by BIAB 9 you mean BIAB 2009. If that's the case, be careful there, because there is a version from long ago called BIAB v9 and there is now a BIAB 2009.
When you change the key as you did, it does not transpose the chords. That's because it's not changing the key, it is merely changing the key signature. That facility was added to BIAB to allow notation to look correct. You have to enter the correct transposed chords yourself (which shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to do).
That way, when you see the notes in notation view, you don't get all the accidentals because it was showing the notes based on the previous key signature.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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OP
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Quote:
I'm going to presume that by BIAB 9 you mean BIAB 2009. If that's the case, be careful there, because there is a version from long ago called BIAB v9 and there is now a BIAB 2009.
When you change the key as you did, it does not transpose the chords. That's because it's not changing the key, it is merely changing the key signature. That facility was added to BIAB to allow notation to look correct. You have to enter the correct transposed chords yourself (which shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to do).
That way, when you see the notes in notation view, you don't get all the accidentals because it was showing the notes based on the previous key signature.
Yes thanks jford, BIAB 2009. So if I understand correctly, there is no "transpose from bar x" feature, only a global transpose, and then a key change notation change feature at bar x? Is this true of BIAB 2010 as well?
So to do what I'm trying to do, take 16 bars of complex chords and try transposing them into different increments, it might be best, I guess to do what Mac suggested and paste them into a copy of Real Band, so that I can toggle back and forth copying and pasting to try different key changes?
And I recognise that the best would be to study Bach. But I don't think I read music well enough to profit from that. I am one of those mathematically impaired but musically intuitive people for whom BIAB is swiftly becoming a way of doing things, things I've always felt stopped in.
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I'm at work and don't have BIAB in front of me, so I can't remember off the top of my head if there is a "transpose selected bars" feature. I can check that tonight, unless someone chimes in. Either way, however, changing the key (signature) won't do the transposing, only affect the notation.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Hi,
There is a transpose from..to.. feature, under the Edit menu | Transpose. There are also some live transpose settings in Opt. | Preferences | Transpose.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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OP
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Quote:
Hi,
There is a transpose from..to.. feature, under the Edit menu | Transpose. There are also some live transpose settings in Opt. | Preferences | Transpose.
Thanks Andrew, that totally works! And thanks to all, I learned a lot from these answers.
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Ha wait until we start on politics and health care LOL. (Ducks) I was hoping to spend lots of time up in Terwanna this spring but some chemo/radiation thing is putting the breaks on stuff for 7 weeks, well 8 if we add in some slice and dice vegomatic thing
I was gonna slide into a Jays game today, but I decided the snow this morning was enough to keep me home.
BTW I often have 2 parts in front of me and do that going from say Db to Gb is just a step so I do what Mac said on the fly, the other key is there in the event I have a horn player however some don't like my keys but they are there in case someone wants to hear me croak the wurds. If I know that then there are 4 pages, the concert key say in Bb for a woose, and in C for the horn player. That way I end up with 4 pages of the same dang song. Sometimes I shoot for 3rds. ie, transpose it up a 3rd if it's just me.
The wife spilled the beans about me playing at the vet's hospital off and on, and the cancer clinic people pushed me over to the piano and said, yer here for 7 weeks, so this is yours when you want.
Nice.
When I walked in the door some dude who knows 3 tunes was playing Green Green Grass of Home and I commented to them that I'm way more cautious than that choosing songs, unless it's at the dementia lock down place, and the words are meaningless. Seemed odd the first thing I hear arriving at the cancer clinic are the strains of 'they'll lay me 'neath the green green grass of home'.
I was trying to stay positive with the huge rainbow over the hospital on arrival, then when I said it's a sign the daughter starts to laugh and goes hey Dad sure, your Gay. Nice.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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This isn't going to help directly with the transposition process, but might help to keep track of things. I have a little screen capture pgm that I use for a number of things. I particularly use it on this forum to copy posts that explain how to do things so that I can look at it whenever I need to find some help on something. You could capture a screen in chord view before and after changes to keep both available. The pgm is free and called "prtscr". I save the images as .jpg.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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