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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 178
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 178 |
I am desperately waiting, (as I suspect are most other BIAB/Realband users!), for the arrival of some new realstyles but, pending that happy event, I have decided to have a trawl of some of the old midi style disks to see if any of them could be pepped up with the judicious addition of a few realtracks.
I haven't touched the midi styles much since the arrival of Realtracks because the quality improvement in the audio tracks was so vast, so I wasn't expecting too much out of the exercise, but I was pleasantly surprised by some of the results. Just blending in a couple of audio realtracks into the mix really seemed to lift the quality of a lot of the midi tracks - particularly on those tracks featuring keyboard and string section type instruments which midi tends to handle better than it does, say, guitar.
One midi style disk which I rediscovered and which I thought was a standout was disk 40 - "Rhythm & Blues". This has got a whole bunch of classic motown/soul type styles on it which were hugely lifted just by the introduction of realdrums. Nashville Pop 16ths seemed to be the default realdrums style for most of the songs on this disk and it worked a treat.
The midi electric and acoustic pianos and clav's sounded pretty good even through the Roland VSC and I am sure that even greater quality can be coaxed out of them with a better Rompler/synth within Realband or another DAW.
The only weak link was the guitar sounds which midi in general (and the VSC in particular) don't seem to be to great at.
PETER GANNON (sorry - didn't mean to shout!) if you read this I would definitely vote for some electric guitar realstyles to fit in with the styles on this style disk. (and If it's not too greedy to ask, one or two of the bass guitar styles would also be very nice, thanks!)
As a songwriter the songs on this styledisk are exactly what I am looking for - they give a high quality rendition within a particular genre of music without, (in the main), sounding too much like any one particular song. They therefore provide a wonderful palette to develop new songs from. Given the recent success of artists such as Amy Winehouse and Duffy with classic motown grooves these styles are also suddenly very 'relevant' again as well.
There is such a huge back catalogue of midi styles out there that I am sure most people will find a few old gems in their own favoured genre that can be freshened up with a realtracks or two. I can definitely recommend having a second look at those old midi styles.
If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Been saying this since the introduction of RealTracks, glad you finally got around to finding out for yourself. Make new friends but keep the old and all that, the addition of even one RealTrack to a MIDI style can change the apparent realism of all the rest for the better.
AND -- the thought that using All RealTracks All the Time may be based on an assumption that is not true.
Enjoy,
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926 |
There are no Real Tracks for the synth parts I use in a lot of my work. Real Synth would actually be a limitation, as I could not wash it through Reason or other sequencers as I do BIAB MIDI parts. There are no Real Electronic Drums, either. Sometimes ya just gotta have that synthetic sound.
'Course, I cheat; I play all of my own guitar parts and much of the bass. But MIDI drums and keys (and horns, and strings, etc., etc.) still rock mightily.
And in RealBand you can use all you want of both.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,199
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,199 |
Aubrey,
What you're really speaking of, to me, is 'quality of sound.' While the nuances of Real Tracks and Real Drums is inescapably a 'real player', a high quality sound source for your MIDI parts, i.e., the MIDI Synth, will take you a long way to revitalizing your styles in Band In A Box that use MIDI.
Of course, 'high quality' usually refers to 'high cost' as well, i.e. the Yamaha Tyros, or Korg PA series, or the Roland and Ketron keyboards. But, I'd also like to remind you that Ketron makes a very nice module in the SD2 that delivers a wonderful sound, and is relatively inexpensive. I believe that use of that module and BIAB MIDI styles will be very surprisingly close to what Real Tracks can give you, especially if you use the higher banks of sounds, and not the General MIDI sound set.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
I have the Ketron and even the regular midi sounds are very very good.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 716
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 716 |
Once you have better sound sources the midi isn't too bad. But the midi side of things is more than a sound issue for me. Its a question of what's still possible in midi by being more thorough and not simply abandoning it's development altogether.
For instance you occasionally hear piano figures strung together in ways you wouldn't hear from real accompanists. Thats something that maybe comes from only having a maximum pattern length of 8 beats. If they got around to doing more four bar 16 beat patterns in styles it would help the erradicate the sometimes 'choppy' feel you get just now. (4 bar patterns are possible now but only by using bar masks in the style editor).
BIAB's piano/guitar parts can also be too busy at times and I find it's necessary to use rests holds and shots to get a more realistic level of activity in the comping (or inactivity depending on how you look at it). These options work well and thats all and good.
Other than that its a question of dynamic variation in the styles; something they've recognized recently by allowing for more sub-style parts. The problem is that none of the older styles were conceived in this way. I'd like to see more effort in upgrading these older styles with c and d parts... again its a case of anything that helps it sound more realistic.
Last edited by alan S.; 08/10/09 05:06 PM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,470
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,470 |
I prefer the MIDI tracks for all the reasons I elaborate on this page http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_vs_loops.htmlHowever, I don't like them on my sound card, I don't like them on the VSC, so I play them on an external MIDI sound source and they sound great. Plus they are editable, I can have holds, shots, and dozens of other things that the real tracks won't give me (see the web page mentioned above). Plus they load instantly and don't take humongous storage space on my hard drive. IMHO The problem with MIDI tracks is not that they are MIDI, but with the cheezy synthesizers built into most sound cards. As far as realistic guitar sounds are concerned, I've played the following clips (made with MIDI and a good sound module) on 3 guitar forums, not telling the users that they were made with a synthesizer, and not only did I get many compliments on my guitar playing, but not one person on the guitar thought they were synth guitars. Note: I did come clean after a while and the guitarists were still amazed. http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_oldtimeguitar.mp3http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_personalchoice.mp3And since they are MIDI guitar leads, I have complete editing control without owning a recording studio. I'm not saying that the Real Tracks have no value. I'm just saying that for the kind of music I play and for the kind of editing I do, they are not for me but for somebody else. They both have their pros and cons and neither one is intrinsically superior to the other. Fortunately we have both so we can choose the one that suits us the best, or as Mac has always said, mix and match to our heart's content. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 178
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 178 |
I think that Gary, Mac and Notes are all correct when they say that the quality of the Midi sound can be improved tremendously when a decent hardware or software synth is used and for me this isn't a tremendous issue because I do my initial song structuring and basic arrangement inside BIAB and then transfer to Cubase for the final instrumentation and arrangement before doing the mixing. I have access to a range of high quality synths such as Sampletank, Halion and Atmosphere (plus many others) which deliver a huge improvement in the sound of the Midi tracks over the basic VST sound pallete I have within Cubase.
The problem is that Midi, even with the best programming, cannot replicate the nuances and variation and sheer 'real' quality that Realtracks deliver.
I started to realise this with the introduction a few years ago of, the now sadly defunct, 'Steinberg Virtual Guitar' VST plug-ins which were a revelation to me. PGs subsequent delivery of the complete 'Virtual Band' with Realtracks and Realstyles has really convinced me that audio based tracks are the only way to deliver the very highest quality finished recordings. (short of hiring session musicians!)
I agree with Notes that Midi certainly has the advantage in terms of complete programmable flexibility and disk space usage but disks are increasing rapidly in size and plummeting in cost, and PG have promised to address some of the flexibility issues (e.g. holds, shots etc) in future releases.
The point that I was trying to make with this post, (and which Mac has been making for some time), is that in many cases the injection of two or three realtracks into a midi style, played in addition to or instead of some of the Midi tracks, seems to provide enough 'real' feel to a song to lift it into a higher quality category and close to an all Realtracks production.
It has taken PG Music well over a decade to build up the very comprehensive midi style library that they have today, and it will obviously be a number of years before they have anything like the same degree of variety and choice in their realtrack based styles. In the meantime it is well worth trying to squeeze some extra juice out of the Midi style library.
I know that it is hard for third party developers such as Notes to make the investment required to deliver realtracks instead of midi styles, and also PG have not yet decided to publish the format for developing anything other than realdrum styles. Hopefully PG will find some way of opening up realtrack design to third parties in a way which rewards their own significant investment and also maintains the very high quality threshold that they have set.
In the meantime Notes how about joining the party by delivering some Midi styles designed specifically to work with some of the existing Realtracks?
Regards, Aubrey
If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor.
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