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Anyone have any idea as to the frequency range of an octave? Say the difference between middle C and the C above middle C. How many hz or Mhz etc. Or how would I determine that?
Thanks
Rob\
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A higher octave doubles the one below it. I don't know the exact frequency offhand of middle C, but that would be easy to Google.
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I'd suggest this technical read as a start. A to A might be easier to figure out. A440 being the benchmark at this time for most Western Music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29
John Conley
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Octave up is double the frequency.
Of course, then two octaves up would be 2X the frequency, etc.
To go downward one octave from any freq. it would be halving the frequency.
Does not matter what the original frequency really is, whether it is the Tempered Scale, whether or not it is referenced to A-440, or if it is just a lone sine wave at a frequency that is not a standard musical note, the same division applies. An example of that would be audio filter design, in which one of the specifications would be the frequency rolloff of the filter, listed in decibels/octave. For example, most audio engineers agree that the 6db/octave filter rolloff is the most "musical" sounding approach. etc.
This applies to more than just the audio spectrum also, in days gone by now it was even used to describe radio frequencies and still today in some physics it is good to use the octave designation sometimes to indicate the frequency divisions of harmonics and the like.
--Mac
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Not meaning to confuse things further, but pianos have a special problem which requires "stretch tuning" to make them sound in tune with themselves. The higher notes are tuned slightly sharp and the lower notes slightly flat. Of course this means that the pitch ratio in an octave is no longer exactly two (the use of the word "two" rather than 2.00 is intentional for mathematical reasons - "two" is exact, 2.0000000 etc, is never exact). One of the best references I've found on this is on a guitar site (the problem also occurs with guitars, but to a lesser extent). http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation5.htmlSince there are quite a few guitarists on this site, they may find this site interesting. Glenn
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Well, Stretch Tuning is not done to "make them sound in tune with themselves" but one would have to experience a dead-on-the-tempered-scale tuning to understand what's going on there. The Stretch generates a slight chorusing effect which helps the piano sound, well, like Piano. But the amount of Stretch is only a few beats, or cents off of the target and the A above middle C should be referenced dead on the 440 in all but the older pianos with pinblock problems. The amount of pitch difference due to stretch is so minimal that it isn't an intonation problem. If the stretch tune is done properly for the type of piano. There's a different stretch for Grands of different sizes, as well as a different stretch for the Console, for the Upright, for the Upright with Grand harp, and an entirely different stretch for the Spinet. There are even stretch methods for the lowly Rhodes pianos. In the case of any of them, the intent is to get that slight chorusing effect and not really a retune from Tempered Scale at all. How to tell: A piano that is tuned "dead on" the Tempered Scale, with no stretch, sounds and plays like an "Ice Cream Truck" xylophone. I know this because, when, as a kid still in High School, I saved up my money and got my hands on a Stroboconn and a Piano Tuning toolkit. Let the learning (and the irate Daddy, boy was he mad) begin...  The Digital Stroboconn I use today can store the stretch tables for various pianos in it. Also you can store custom stretch or have it simply memorize a piano with the mic so that you can easily go back and put that particular piano "back to rights" quickly. The piano tuners of the world never had it so good. --Mac
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I was told that a perfectly tuned piano (according to math) would make the octaves blend in as harmonics and make the distinct note 'disappear' a bit, so the stretch tuning is done to keep the notes distinct and clear. (as Mac said - 'not to be in tune with itself') Not sure how true this is in apllication, but this was from a guy that tuned pianos for a living. Back when you could make a living doing that! Sounds reasonable enough to me.. close enough explanation? Here's a chart to answer the original post question - http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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If it was mathematically tuned you could only play in one key. The one it was tuned for
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Thanks guys, very informative, didn't even think about googling the darn thing.  Rob
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The guy who tunes my piano gets his main business from the Las Vegas casinos. I am amazed that he never uses a meter and I don't recall ever seeing him use a tuning fork for a starting reference.
Don S.
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Rob, I have the fundamental frequencies of each note on the scale saved in an excel file in my phone/PDA. I can probably send this to you if you like. Here's a wikipedia article on the topic that can get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequenciesIt can help if I'm debugging a feedback issue, don't have access to an analyzer, but do have access to a synth with a sine-lead output. It helps to match up with where in a graphic EQ to notch something out. Normally I can do this by ear as I have fundamental frequencies of octave bands sort of 'memorized' and I can localize to just a few bands on an EQ at the first go. To Don's point, I have started a small piano tuning business. I tune the middle octaves as best I can with a tuner on the middle string, then by ear on the two sides. Then outer octaves I do strictly by ear. Here's a couple clips of the very first two pianos I tuned last year: http://rockstarnot.rekkerd.org/misc/COTB_before_and_after_tuning.mp3http://rockstarnot.rekkerd.org/misc/story_clark_before_after.mp3I played the 2nd clip, the first clip was my kid's piano teacher playing her piano. Each one is unique and each one had some bum tuning pegs that I couldn't get to stay tuned. There's a special tool for those to tap the peg into the block - cross threading it a bit into the wood. I don't have that tool. Still learning, still acquiring tools.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 12/03/09 11:47 AM.
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The guy who teaches piano tuning at the listing below, plays Eb horn in my brass band, and tunes my piano, for $100. Every January. If you know someone who's looking for a really cool career in music: http://www.pianotech.uwo.ca/My wife is a graduate of the music school at the same University.
John Conley
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Yep, I got the info I needed for my wife off the wiki site. Some trick question for a continuing ed test for her hearing dispensing license. thanks
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Quote:
The guy who tunes my piano gets his main business from the Las Vegas casinos. I am amazed that he never uses a meter and I don't recall ever seeing him use a tuning fork for a starting reference.
Don S.
Pitch memory is a blessing and a curse. Maybe more the latter.
I had a piano tuner once who told me he couldn't listen to violin music because it was "all out of tune."
Having a gift doesn't always mean that you'll be able to enjoy it.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
If it was mathematically tuned you could only play in one key. The one it was tuned for
That describes the situation that results when using the math, but does not apply here because we use the Tempered tuning in modern times almost exclusively.
It is a different thing from the Stretch Tuning of the piano, which is almost always going to be based on the Tempered Scale.
--Mac
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It took me 4 years to get over playing on G horns and Bflat horns. I'd see the note and hear something different. YIKES!
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Each one is unique and each one had some bum tuning pegs that I couldn't get to stay tuned. There's a special tool for those to tap the peg into the block - cross threading it a bit into the wood. I don't have that tool. Still learning, still acquiring tools.
Another method is to use a small hypodermic needle to put some water laced with glycerin into the wood immediately surroungind the loose pin and then be patient, wait for the wood to swell a bit. Wait overnight on the really loose ones, a bit of rust on the peg plus the swelled pinblock wood right next to it can work wonders. Use this on older pianos that may have just dried out. For a newer piano, it shouldn't slip, and if it does, the pin hammering method is the way to go.
--Mac
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I have a friend that rebuilds/restores grand pianos.
He usually replaces loose pins with oversize ones. I watched him doing it a few days ago. Boring job.
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Martin
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Quote:
I have a friend that rebuilds/restores grand pianos.
He usually replaces loose pins with oversize ones. I watched him doing it a few days ago. Boring job.
Very punny!
I would actually get a zen-like pleasure from that type of job - but the tool set needed to be a fully qualified piano technician is quite huge. All of these special wrenches and screwdrivers etc. to get up and around and over and beside all of the various mechanisms for different types and brands of pianos - and these guys really don't get paid all that well.
That reminds me to try to find my big catalog from some place in Chicago area. I haven't seen it since my move to CO. Hmmm.
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