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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Like most of you, I have all 77 midi style sets, and, while I'm not a luddite in relation to Real Tracks, I really lament the downgrading of many great midi tracks / patterns etc. I know they are still there, but everything is now oriented around RTs. Incorporating midi instruments is a pain, as they are associated with styles, and, unless you are using them regularly, there is no realistic way of remembering that, say, there is a great piano part in the "country 1 soundtrack" style on Disk 50 (there is - try it). Another example is that for me, disk 73 - the "Steely Dan" disk - was a highpoint of the midi era, with a lot of great instrumental parts which could still be very useful, assuming it was easier to find and use them (and I have been using BAIB for about 12 years so I don't thing it's lack of knowledge on my part).
There are literally hundreds of great parts, often every bit as good as RTs languishing in the midi style disks. They cover a lot of areas where RTs are thinner on the ground - like rock piano, rock electric piano, organ, strings, pads etc, and even some types of basses. They are less good in terms of acoustic and electric guitar parts, and maybe brass (although with some effort,even these can sound good).
I was wondering whether there was a way of bringing them back to life. The obvious route would be through a midi part browser, similar to the RT browser. This is something I, and others, have mentioned before.
Another option might be something like "Studio Tracks" - like "Real Tracks", but not quite the same process. These could be created by playing the midi parts (duplicating the types of progressions played by the studio musicians in creating RTs) through a good sample set / virtual instrument (like Ivory, the B4 or Lounge Lizard) and creating wav/WMA files which could be used in exactly the same way as Real Tracks (ideally through the same browser). Given that the midi parts were played by humans originally (perhaps I assume too much!), I doubt that it would be a trade descriptions issue.
I feel that this would allow years of work by Peter and his team to have a whole new lease of life.
My 2p and happy to be shot down in flames.
Brian
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I use mostly RTs however there are some instruments were MIDI is fine. Piano, strings, organ. What I do is first of all in the style picker is an "edit" button. Click on that and you'll see that you can see that you can create your own categories & also your own style names as well.I have a Category for the above mentioned instruments as well as self made styles that are just kick drum.If I find a piano in some style I like I open the editor rename it, give it a description that is meaningful to me and save it in the "piano" category. These user styles will then show in the Style Picker both in RB & BIAB.This feature is real useful in RB were you can generate just a single midi instrument from a midi style.Not so useful in BIAB unless you take the time to make "Hybrid "styles of your own.I was once a Jammer user & I know folks who also have used it like that ability to choose single instruments.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi John
That's a nice solution - as with many things, I wish I had started doing something similar when there were about 24 built in styles and a couple of dozen add-ons, rather than several thousand BAIB ended up with!
It still raises the issue about working with midi and real tracks at the same time, with the need for hybrid styles (for example, in order to audition the midi part with the other RT parts still playing) and the balance issues posed by the considerable volume difference between most RTs and the parts played through Forte/VSC etc.
I suppose the other point is that folks like you and I (and many of the "older" forum members) used BAIB for years as Midi only and so have a good level of familiarity both with working with the midi styles and where the "good" parts are (and hence how to extract them). Not the least of the problems is that parts within midi styles are only ever labelled "Bass, Drums, Piano, Strings, Guitar", even where the piano part is actually an organ, the strings are actually a synth pad and the guitar is a horn section!
Someone coming fresh to this (the "Real Tracks Generation") would be likely to miss out on such a huge legacy of useful parts. Working with individual parts from midi styles alongside RTs is, I suspect, far from intutive, and really would require a high level of familiarity with the programme.
Brian
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have requested in the past that you be able to right click on an instrument and instead of "add RT" also have a choice of "add midi inst" and have a list of ALL the instruments available to choose from.This would be a mammoth list though I'm afraid.Then again it may not be as large as one would think first because the instruments could be grouped in categories & second I bet there's a lot of redundancy in the use of instruments through out the styles.
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I agree totally about having a rethink after all the euphoria about realtracks. I did a song a few weeks ago with only realdrums and a midi style, and I think it sounded as good if not better than using realtracks.
I think what we have got used to with midi is we review a midi style without reviewing the individual parts, so many styles it would be kind of an impossible task to review all the individual parts, a lot of the midi styles are rubbish anyway so out of date, but that’s not the midi fault, just boring styles.
I am all for a picker for midi instruments so that we can all add our own favourites to it.
musiclover
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Brian,
I find the midi styles can be overwhelming sometimes when I'm looking for something specific like a piano part. So thanks for a heads up on that country piano and SD. There is some great midi once you find it.
It's even harder once in realband. For example when I change styles in realband to try to search for a midi piano, I use the filter but I haven't figured out how to get more than one result. Quite frustrating so I usually do it in BIAB but when I've already moved the song to RB it would be nice to be able to more easily search midi styles there.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Fifer,
I remember the day I brought my Tyros home and plugged it into Biab. It sounded like I had a brand new band playing behind me. The hurdle with a midi style lies in the sound of your playback device. If you don't have something up-to-date, instrument sound-wise, you get frustrated with Biab, even though it is NOT Biab's fault. Thus the RT's . . . .
I agree with you 100 % about the midi styles. Some of them are better then the Real Styles or Tracks. I have overcome the "I wished this midi style was done with real instruments" by using RealBand to convert the midi part(s) to wave files in my song and THEN adding each Real Track part, if any, until I have what I want.
It all lies within our midi playback device to make "it" happen. I would encourage anyone who is using PG Software to invest in a sound module/keyboard/Vst(i)/keyboard that will have real sounding midi instrument patches.
Also, having the "Hybrid Style Maker" available to us in Biab, we can make our own midi styles with just a few mouse clicks. I would also encourage everyone who uses Biab to invest some time with the Hybrid Style Maker. The HSM is another powerful tool when it comes to customizing a midi style or making one completely from scratch.
I think the PG Team have been busy with the latest software updates and getting the RT's recorded for it. I don't think we have seen the last of the midi styles either. At least, I really hope not?
Killer Sound Module + Biab + RealBand = Makin it happen.
Trax
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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A big +1 on this idea.
I've been a bit frustrated lately, hoping there could be an easy way to add Midi parts in BIAB to a mostly RT song.
While the RTs are great, sometimes you're needing a different kind of part that you remember from the Midi styles. A midi part picker, similar to the RT and RD picker would be fantastic, especially if there were a way to preview it like we can now preview the RTs.
I'm sure this would require a massive amount of work for PG, but it would be a great asset to BIAB.
John
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I agree with Fifer. A good MIDI file + a good sound equipment can make a very good job. It depends also of the styles and the used instruments. For ex. brass instruments parts are harder to reproduce than strings parts.
I think some early MIDI files of BIAB should need to be reviewed and enhanced to make them sound better. I did the job on some styles I often use, but it's a huge work. Some examples : add enveloppes on strings parts, mainly for attack and release of the sounds, tweak the velocity of individual notes inside a pattern - so get rid of constant velocities on parts ! - , add bass patterns when next chord goes down a 3rd like would play a real bassist, add specific /prefill fill patterns not only for drums but also for some instruments to add intensity in the groove, etc.. delete all grid drums and replace them by live drums, etc...
MIDI is not dated : see the PSR or Tyros keyboards for example, they work with MIDI files as styles.
Reach for excellence
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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A lot of the early midi (and, I suppose later midi) styles were written when the available playback equipment (whether hardware or software) had only one, or at most two or three velocity layers. The VSC, which was the BAIB staple for years, has, I think, one. Often older midi files often sound better, and arguably more real, on the VSC than on much better equipment. When I try playing BAIB piano parts through Sonar's bundled piano VST, they often sound lumpy as the piano has 127 virtual velocity layers and the part was compiled to be played through a VSTi with 1! I usually use Sonar's midi compressor to even out the peaks and troughs in velocities and restrict the number of velocity layers in the sample sets I use. BAIB string parts often sound fairly awful in good quality sample sets I assume for the same reason. These things are easily sorted though and are really just part of the workflow. Until I got a 64bit Windows 7 PC I always loaded VSC in any Sonar project and routed any midi parts through that first to get a better sense of what they sounded like before then running them through bigger, better sample sets, and making any amendments to the midi velocities. Sadly now, VSC won't even intall on my PC ... Isn't progress great.
Brian
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Fifer:
I think this is a good idea. Maybe you could contact the Forum Administrator about moving it to the BIAB wishlist forum.
John
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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The one thing about the "wishlist" forum is that hardly anyone reads it and virtually no-one ever replies to / adds to the posts! I posted here so that forum members would, if they wish, add to the debate, contribute their ways of working etc (as a number of folks have done very usefully).
I suppose the best approach is to cross post, and that's probably what I should have done.
Brian
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The one thing about the "wishlist" forum is that hardly anyone reads it and virtually no-one ever replies to / adds to the posts! I posted here so that forum members would, if they wish, add to the debate, contribute their ways of working etc (as a number of folks have done very usefully).
I suppose the best approach is to cross post, and that's probably what I should have done.
Brian
Over the years I have seen quite a few "New Features" implemented in Band in a Box that started life on the Wishlist Forum. (And some requests that never seem to get fulfilled as well...)
But I have become convinced that the Wishlist Forum is the place where the development team goes to look for possible new features when that time comes around and that having your wish there will make certain that it will be where they will be looking.
As for your specific request, well, it is a good idea, I'm not certain whether implementation will be all that easy or not due to the fact that until the introduction of RealTracks, Band in a Box simply did not work that way. There never has been a way to add MIDI style file tracks one at a time as we can with the RealTracks and I am not sure what that would entail in the way of development in order to get it to happen.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Brian:
Well written post and I agree completely-- it would be great of PGMusic provided a midi part browser. I would like to assemble some hybrid styles, but the thought of searching through every midi style for the right parts simply overwhelms me. On my last project, I settled for style parts that were adequate but could have been much better if I had taken the time to search more. In the meantime, several of us could volunteer our favorite choices for midi parts. Then we could assemble a text file of these so we each have a shortlist to draw from and save a lot of time when needed.
For example, for acoustic piano, here's an obvious one for me:
Part: acoustic piano
style: elton2.sty
feel: EV16
genre: rock
tempo: 80
--- Jim
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Quote:
Brian:
Well written post and I agree completely-- it would be great of PGMusic provided a midi part browser. I would like to assemble some hybrid styles, but the thought of searching through every midi style for the right parts simply overwhelms me. On my last project, I settled for style parts that were adequate but could have been much better if I had taken the time to search more. In the meantime, several of us could volunteer our favorite choices for midi parts. Then we could assemble a text file of these so we each have a shortlist to draw from and save a lot of time when needed.
For example, for acoustic piano, here's an obvious one for me:
Part: acoustic piano
style: elton2.sty
feel: EV16
genre: rock
tempo: 80
--- Jim
I use the "Memo" area of Biab to list my BB parts as I audition styles for a Hybrid Style. Another way of minimizing your search is by filtering the styles down to tempo and feel with the "style filter." You will need a similar "prototype" style, which is close to what you are looking for in your song. Once you have selected your prototype, then use the style filter to list similar styles to make a hybrid with.
Trax
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Totally agree and I posted this a few years ago in the Wishlist forum but alas, nothing has been done. I would love to be able to pick a rock style midi piano just like we can pick from the different rock style piano RT's. A few months ago I was looking for a certain funky midi guitar part and spent the better part of an hour trying out all the funk midi styles until I found one.
Hmmm, perhaps we or me (no promises!) can create a list of custom styles like John is talking about. Sort it by instrument/genre and post it here where we can all add to it. It would need to have descriptive notes. I remember when going through all the funky guitar parts, some were rhythm while some were just licks. Of course the ones that were licks were designed to fit with the other parts of the style so they didn't sound very good by themselves. This would be tricky but perhaps we could start with obvious major genres like rock, blues, country etc.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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+1
I would LOVE that feature to be implemented and for almost the same reasons.
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Have you tried the new style filter? It really helps. I put in that I wanted:
1. Midi style
2. country
3. used Acoustic Piano
It filtered down to 34 styles.Not too bad to pick through.
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Yeah, that's OK John but not close to what we really need. If it's Biab, when you pick a style, it changes the whole song when all we may want is one piano part from one style to go with what we already have. We can do that with RT's but not the midi styles. If we're in RB, yes we can choose a style for just one track but we still need to first hit the stylepicker button up top, find the style from a huge list, then go down to the track and pick the piano part before we can hear it. That's a lot of mouse clicks and moving around the screen when we need to audition a bunch of parts. I want to simply right click the track, pick midi instrument, pick piano and see a list of midi piano parts to choose from organized by genre just like the RT parts. That would be very cool but like Mac said maybe it's just not possible.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Have you tried the new style filter? It really helps. I put in that I wanted:
1. Midi style
2. country
3. used Acoustic Piano
It filtered down to 34 styles.Not too bad to pick through.
Nice -- but it didn't include the country piano part listed in post #1 from the styles disk 50.
Kevin
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