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Tried the Auto Style Wizard a couple of times and now I'd like to get my hands really dirty.
These questions are asked with a basic understanding of the '30' style pattern 'boxes' for melodic instruments and of the use of masks.
1st, is there an ideal number of bars to be copied/ recorded into a cell? For example 1 bar, 2 bars, 4 bars, etc.
2nd, assuming you had 30 cells all set to '5,-i.e., equal probability of being selected, does the length of the initial chorus effect the probabiity of more cells being chosen ... or is that what the 'no duplicates till 8' do, that is change how the parts are selected.
Any link or reference to past posts or are welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Prado
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I find the "reverse engineering" method to be quite helpful.
Just open existing styles with the Style Editor and examine them, see what's been done.
This answered that, "how many bars" question for me, with examples of when and where.
And a lot of other questions, too, some of which I did not know to ask.
Give it a try.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thanks Mac ...
Will do.
I'd still like any info on the probability aspects of how the generation/ select algorithm works. For example, is there a point of diminishing returns as far as how many cells you program. I can see that the number of cells might be understandably different for the different instruments ... as in less bass lines and more piano lines, for example.
Prado
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Hello, Prado.
We don't know for sure if a number of 6 gives the pattern exactly 3 times the likelihood of being chosen over one with a number of 2; but that would be the way to bet, and the assumption is close enough in practice. By the time you have 20 or 40 patterns, the massed probabilities become too much to think about anyway. Diminishing returns set in after maybe 7 or 8 patterns on a line -- far fewer than that in simple strict styles. If you dispute my number after a little experience, just add some patterns for greater variety.
If you have a pattern you don't want to hear very often, just give it a 1 or 2. Another that is more generic and more widely useful could get a 7 or 8. Most can ride along at 5. (If you make them all 8's, that has the same effect as making them all 1's.) Mostly, you should just stop worrying about the mathematical details.
In a long chorus -- with more opportunities for a pattern to get used -- naturally there's a higher chance for it to be played than if you had only a couple bars.
Are you paying attention to the "masks" of the patterns yet? With those, you can reserve a pattern for specific circs, like a turnaround or fill measure. Putting masks on patterns sets them aside for special use, so they aren't even considered for other places in the song.
PG jazz styles tend to use patterns masked for all their measures: This one for bar1, that for bar2, right on through the 8-bar cycle. You may not want to go that far, but if you do it so, you can get a tight and highly-controlled sounding style that runs no risk of repeating the same pattern for two chords in a row. I leave them sloppy and loose, myself, for the ballad styles I often write -- with no bar masking of that strict type. Whatever you like is fair use.
Larry
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
1st, is there an ideal number of bars to be copied/ recorded into a cell? For example 1 bar, 2 bars, 4 bars, etc.
You may not be entirely clear on how it works, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
Have you noticed that a style section's main 4 lines are reserved for 8-beat, 4-beat, 2-beat, and 1-beat patterns? That sets the MINIMUM amount of info you need in each pattern on that line. There is usually little point in exceeding that, but you can bang in longer phrases than the minimum, if you like. The program will ignore the extra beats, and if all goes well, it may sound OK anyway.
Don't use fewer beats; that will cause the Awkward Silence of Doom and give you the pip.
Larry
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@Allis ... Thanks for your help. Yes I do understand about 'masks.'
And, obviously if I'd listened more carefully to Mac I would have looked more closely in the style maker and known that we're talking 2, 1 and 1/2 bars!
I think I now have enough of the basic idea to just play around with it to get a better feel for what happens.
I was thinking about the probabilites as '5' being neutral, i.e., an equal chance of being selected as any other '5' ... so if you had 5 cells of '5' each selectioni each cell would have a 20% chance of being slected ... where as other cells excluding 1 and 9 would have a slightly higher or lower chance of selection. For example (according to my idle speculation!) if you had 4 cells of '5' and one of '6' the '5s' might have a 18% chance and the '6' a 28% chance ... to be modified if there were 3 '5s' and 2 '6s' in some fashion to something like 16% for '5s' and 26% for '6s.'
However, I don't think this is true 'random selection,' otherwise the 'no duplicates till ... ' function would be useless. Probabilities must be affected by prior selection.
You might imagine ... yes I am fascinated by probability theory and statistics.
Thanks ...
Prado
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Sounds like you're on your way. Mac surely was right about studying PG Music styles for a bit. You can start to see how a good style, known to be successful in widespread use, is assembled. Try customizing the snot out of them, too. Very quickly, you have a library of stuff with your own subtly different touch.
Stay in touch.
Larry
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Quote:
I was thinking about the probabilites as '5' being neutral, i.e., an equal chance of being selected as any other '5' ... so if you had 5 cells of '5' each selectioni each cell would have a 20% chance of being slected ... where as other cells excluding 1 and 9 would have a slightly higher or lower chance of selection. For example (according to my idle speculation!) if you had 4 cells of '5' and one of '6' the '5s' might have a 18% chance and the '6' a 28% chance ... to be modified if there were 3 '5s' and 2 '6s' in some fashion to something like 16% for '5s' and 26% for '6s.'
That's absolutely how she works.
But you seem to be implying one small thing that's wrong: The value of 1 has no absolute significance, the way 9 does. "1" just means "Really really, low; almost never play this".
Last edited by allis; 02/09/10 05:31 PM.
Larry
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re '1' ... I stand, sit and bow corrected! And of course, to have an absolute value of 'never play' would be a conundrum ... unless it was 'masked?'
Prado
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... not sure if I should start a new thread ... but two more stylemaker questions.
First, when working in the Stylemaker is there a simple way to 'solo' the cell you are auditioning without going to the main menu and soloing the instruments there?
Second, when auditioning a cell, for example the 1st cell in Part A 8 beat, it always seems to play exactly the same accompaniement by other instruments. This makes me wonder whether the cell order is linked between instruments. That is all instruments are playing cell one in Part A 8 Beat. Anyone know?
If it were so, it suggests a lot of great tweaks to existing styles for adding cells in which you slightly change some of the notes for just one instrument and leave the others alone.
I also think I see the answer to my 'call and response' melody question: use 8 beats and link the first 4 beats on one instrument , leaving the rest blank, with the inverse on a second compatible instrument ... or maybe 'empty' bars? I've got to check and see if I can put a probability on an empty bar.
Prado
Last edited by Prado; 02/09/10 06:02 PM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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"Weighting"
The numbers indicate the weight value statistically.
In other words, a 9 is statistically weighted to be selected more often than a 4.
--Mac
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It's weighting with a twist, though: 9 is a special value in the Stylemaker. A pattern with a weight of 9 plays EVERY SINGLE TIME a chance arises.
If you have a pattern with a mask for "bar 4 of 4" and a weighting value of 9, it will play on every single bar-4 that ever comes by while that style section is active. So you can escape the weighting that way.
Larry
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Quote:
First, when working in the Stylemaker is there a simple way to 'solo' the cell you are auditioning without going to the main menu and soloing the instruments there?
Sure. Highight the pattern and hit the space bar.
Quote:
Second, when auditioning a cell, for example the 1st cell in Part A 8 beat, it always seems to play exactly the same accompaniement by other instruments. This makes me wonder whether the cell order is linked between instruments. That is all instruments are playing cell one in Part A 8 Beat. Anyone know?
Good ear, hearing that linking. Auditioning in the Stylemaker does link together patterns in comparable rows of the different instruments. During real playback, that link is broken. In the ENDINGs, however, the link seems to be observed both during playback and audition. You can use the tricks you suggest, to make nice endings.
Quote:
...I've got to check and see if I can put a probability on an empty bar.
Absolutely can. If your genre allows it and won't sound weird, you may lay instruments out at random, using all the blank patterns you can stand.
Last edited by allis; 02/09/10 06:49 PM.
Larry
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
And of course, to have an absolute value of 'never play' would be a conundrum ...
It would be a little pointless, as a general thing, yes. But two related things come to mind.
If you apply a weighting of "0" to a pattern, it will erase itself and be gone forever.
If you want to shut up a particular pattern without losing it forever, you can "Mute" it. An M appears as its weighting, and it never plays until you unmute it again. Occasionally useful, nice for the insecure user afraid to erase anything.
Larry
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Great stuff ... thanks Allis and Mac.
Prado
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Good luck! You will get a good result because you're really interested in doing this and not afraid to try it. BiaB will quickly get even better for you. The styles are the core of the program, and you won't be stuck using only what you're lucky enough to find. Available Stylemaker Tutorials I should have mentioned before: Stylemaker Tutorial 1 Stylemaker Tutorial 2____________
Larry
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