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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hello all,
I'm loving BIAB 2009 on my new Windows 7 Asus laptop- awesome songwriting tool!
I want to connect a keyboard, mostly just to enter melodies and some accompaniment lines. Want to avoid spending many $.
I have this old Yamaha PSR-220 on indefinate loan- I'm not sure if it's worth trying to make work. I read on the internet people struggling connecting this same unit with a Midi to USB connector- I'd hate to buy an UNO connector then have it be a hassle. I realise that I could get an external USB box (m-audio or something) But I'm hoping I don't need more clutter- I have a Samson CO1U USB mic that works fine for vocals plugged directly into the laptop. I hope a keyboard can work the same way.
Should I forget about this old Yamaha and get a new USB midi controller? If so, which one?
I don't think I need sounds generated by the keyboard... for songwriting? I also use Ableton live suite 8.
I do require that a keyboard be precise, so that I can play the notes in accurately and without latency, including percussion.
Thanks for your help!
Bandmoose.
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Quote:
...I do require that a keyboard be precise, so that I can play the notes in accurately and without latency, including percussion.
Thanks for your help!
Bandmoose.
I can't comment on the keyboard itself, if it's midi capable then it should work ok, the problem is with this last statement. Simply plugging the PSR into your laptop you will hear so much latency it will be unusable probably around a half second or so. Windows uses what's called WDM but for some reason PG still uses the old name MME. MME hasn't been used for about 8 years now but it is WDM. This is your audio driver. MME works perfectly for Biab playback but terrible for live playing like what you're asking about because of the latency. You have to use ASIO for that. There's a free download that a lot of us use called ASIO4All you can Google it easily enough. Depending on what you're using as a softsynth ASIO4ALL can get that latency down to around 10ms or so which is good for live playing. The other way to get ASIO is to buy a good interface, all of them now come with their own version of ASIO. The bad news here is Biab can be tempermental when setting up ASIO but it does work, just a bit confusing at first. Another choice is to use the sounds in the PSR because it's hardware, no latency at all if the sounds are good enough for you so no need to mess around with ASIO. That means you're not using the audio output from your laptop, you use your headphones or audio cables directly from the PSR.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Another choice is to use the sounds in the PSR because it's hardware, no latency at all if the sounds are good enough for you so no need to mess around with ASIO. Bob
Thanks for your help. I'm not that fussy about sounds, I'm not trying to create quality demos, just songwrite, get down my melodies in BIAB. I also want to be able to enter lyrics to and create sheet music, if possible.
So if I used the keyboard's sounds, then it will record as audio instead of midi, correct? And then am I not more limited in how I can manipulate that file, if it's audio instead of midi? Like, I might be able to give a midi file to a studio producer, but could I equally well give them an audio file?
That means you're not using the audio output from your laptop, you use your headphones or audio cables directly from the PSR.
Bob
I don't understand this. What I need to do is record melodies over BIAB arrangements. If the PSR Yamaha was recording/played directly into the laptop, wouldn't I be able to hear everything together through the laptop sound card?
Excuse my newb igno, thanks for help.
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The MIDI out of the keyboard will record MIDI data.
The Audio Out of the keyboard to Line In of soundcard is used to record Audio.
--Mac
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Band, The manual for the PSR-220 is here: http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/PSR230E.pdfI see no reason why this keyboard should give you any issues whatsoever with MIDI. As to the M-Audio Uno, I have one, I used to use it on a regular basis, it's very easy to use, I would recommend it. Next, what Bob said about ASIO and latency has no bearing on this whatsoever. The latency that he talks about, and the driver models, are only used if you are going to use a software synth, which I didn't see you ask anything about. I will assume that you will move the finished product to Ableton LIve after you're done in Band In A Box. I would suggest using the tones within the PSR-220 itself, at least for the time you are in Band In A Box Then, you can use whatever in Ableton once you get to that point. Since all you are sending is MIDI, there will be no latency. You'll record the MIDI note in BIAB as soon as you hear it playing on the keyboard. You WILL need to set up the proper MIDI settings within the keyboard for multi-timbral playing, however. That shouldn't be too hard with the manual. Make sure the MIDI IN and MIDI OUT of the USB interface that you're using are plugged correctly into the keyboard. If you can afford it, something like this, for less than $200 at Musicians' Friend, will give you built in USB MIDI connectivity, negating the need for an external MIDI Interface, and will also give you better sound than the PSR-220 you have now, and most any available software synth in the same, or less, price range. http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Cont...amp;CTID=205100You can, at the top right of the page, click on the Audio tab and listen to 9 demo songs. That *is* what the keyboard sounds like, and for $200 or so, is a very impressive sound set. Remember, BIAB is going to give you up to five tracks of MIDI files when you export, or can give you multiple audio files for export, if you are using Real Drums and Real Tracks. All of that can be input into Ableton, and using the internal sounds there. However, I think that the PSR-220's internal sounds should be used for at least the MIDI portion when using BIAB, so that you have a better idea of how something is going to sound with no latency. Gary Regards,
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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I had no luck with 2 Yamaha keyboards. But maybe I'm just a moron. They output some strange stuff. Others may have good experiences. I have no issue with my Roland Keyboard, I play thru, and direct to the soundsystem, depending on the song.
As far as entering anything, it's WAY easier to do that by hand using the notation screens than I ever had it work on it's own. And percussion, um not in Band in a Box, unless you want to record to the soloist and disable the drums section. The RealDrums and midi drums, depending on your sound sources are better than you can do on your own, with the CAVEAT, that if you are trying to replicate Phil Collins doing the drumming, you have the wrong software in band in a box, it is meant as a backup band that flexes, and doesn't bend, but covers, well you can get the feel, the genre, and the idea, but to replicate something, it's easier to program midi from the get go and forget Band in a box.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Next, what Bob said about ASIO and latency has no bearing on this whatsoever.
Actually it does Gary, because later in his post he said this:
Quote:
I don't think I need sounds generated by the keyboard...
That's why my explanation about latency.
For $200 that new Yammy looks like a great deal.
Just to clarify a bit Bandmoose midi and audio are two separate functions. Recording the output of your keyboard is audio, sending midi into Biab is recorded as midi which is then used to trigger a synth. If you only have midi coming out of your laptop to the keyboard then yes, you would hear the keyboard's sounds but nothing is getting recorded in Biab as midi. You also have to have the keyboard sending midi as well into your laptop. If you were to listen to the audio out of the laptop by having headphones plugged into the laptop's headphone jack as you were playing live you would hear bad latency unless you used ASIO as I described. But, if you plug those same headphones into the headphone jack on the keyboard, no latency but the midi is still being recorded.
Hope this helps a bit.
Oh, since you are new at this don't forget about setting the midi channel being transmitted from the keyboard to match Biab's thru channel. It's either 4 or 5, I always forget which and have to look it up.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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As to playing thru, you have to set the keyboard and band in a box to the same midi channel. Mine would be at 5 but I use 5 for my voicelive box, so my keyboard and my software are set to channel 9.
It's a learning curve for that but not too bad. If you get caught ask, the settings are there at the top.....
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Yamaha KBs are traditionally picky about the USB cable you will have far better luck if you buy a Yamaha USB cable to attach the unit to the computer.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Bob,
In context. I agree that ASIO is important, and that latency is a real issue. However, he was also going to move everything to Ableton Live, which once he imported the BIAB work as a MIDI file would have negated any need to worry about latency, which is why I said that.
I also prefixed my statement about your comment with the suggestion that he did use the sounds from the keyboard, which would have negated the use of soft synths and the latency issue.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
As far as entering anything, it's WAY easier to do that by hand using the notation screens than I ever had it work on it's own. And percussion, um not in Band in a Box...
Thanks John, do you mean... if I'm trying to enter in a melody line, that it's easier enter the notes one at a time with the mouse and computer keyboard? If so, that's perhaps how I should proceed, since my piano skills are minimal... if a synth is not the best way to enter melodies then I'd rather not go throught the hassle.
Is it possible to get good at entering melodies on piano roll? (I find that more intuitive than traditional notation)
But... isn't it better to play them in on an external synth?
Thanks for all your help! If I do need to set up the Yamaha, or get a new one, I've got some great alternatives!
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Do you know that you can use the QWERTY keyboard to record MELODY track? The Wizard makes the notes sound harmonic with the chords as you tap, leaving you to just concentrate on the RHYTHM of the part you want. Then you go into the Notation View and drag he notes to the proper pitches. I think that can also be done in the PianoRoll view as well. Once this method is learned, it is fast and I use it when out on the road and have only the laptop to contend with. From BiaB Tech FAQs, #32: Quote:
32.Can I enter a melody into Band-in-a-Box using the computer keyboard?
Here is a method that you can use to record a melody into Band-in-a-Box using the computer keyboard:
Go to the Play menu and make sure 'Wizard Playalong Feature' is enabled.
Start recording.
Choose any key on your computer keyboard (N for example) and strike it in time with the notes of your melody. The idea here is not to get the note pitches right, just the durations.
When you have finished, keep the take. Next, put the Notation Window into editable notation mode. From here, you can step forward or backward note by note using the keypad "Ins" and "Del" keys. While doing so, you can use the up-down arrow keys to change the pitch each note. This method works great for non-keyboardists, and is also useful for adjusting existing melodies.
--Mac
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Awesome Mac, thanks! I'm trying this which I think is going to work super-well, but I have unworkable latency on my computer keyboard. I looked through the FAQ's and all the latency setting adjustments seem to be for an external synth keyboard... is it the same process for setting the computer keyboard latency?
Thanks!
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Quote:
Awesome Mac, thanks! I'm trying this which I think is going to work super-well, but I have unworkable latency on my computer keyboard. I looked through the FAQ's and all the latency setting adjustments seem to be for an external synth keyboard... is it the same process for setting the computer keyboard latency?
Thanks!
Bandmoose, reread my first post above. That's exactly what I said "unworkable latency" then I explained about how you have to use ASIO to get the latency down to where you can play it live. Note the difference between live playing and simple playback. Also note the difference between using an external keyboard synth for sound and using an internal software synth for sound and the difference between using MME and ASIO. Your QWERTY PC keyboard is just another controller driving a internal software synth and as such it's subject to the same latency problem. The definition of these terms is critical to you understanding how this works. Go to Mac's Audiominds website and click on the tab at the upper left "getting started". A lot of good basic info there.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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